Empowering Women in Tech – Marcus Whitney LIVE with Susanne Tedrick
This episode's guest on #MWL is Susanne Tedrick. We talk about issues keeping women of color out of tech, how people can be allies to women of color, and how to grow and develop your network.
We also discuss her journey to authorship and her mission to encourage girls and women of color to enter the STEM fields through her book, "Women of Color in Tech."
Where to watch live:
https://youtube.com/marcuswhitneysvideouniverse
https://facebook.com/marcuswhitney
https://linkedin.com/in/marcuswhitney
https://twitter.com/marcuswhitney


MW
what's up
how's it going everybody out there
another episode of Marcus Whitney live
happy Thursday
really excited about this conversation
this is a new friend of mine who was
introduced to me by a mutual friend
Betsy so Betsy thank you for making this
connection Suzanne
Tedrick is the author of women in color
in tech and she was nice enough to give
me a copy of the book I'm about
two-thirds of the way through it's a
fantastic read the book really just
doesn't just cover the statistics
because as she points out early in the
book we've had so many reports and so
many analysis on this topic we
understand that this is really about the
deeper underlying systemic issues and
it's also a bit of a road map of how to
navigate and how to be strategic about
this and why she's able to do that it's
because she's had her own successful
career and many of these things she's
kind of encountered herself so this is a
topic as a man of color in tech it is
not quite as bad as it is for women in
color in tech but it's still it's still
bad so it was a topic I really wanted to
cover so please welcome Suzanne to the
show
ST
Marcus thank you so much
MW
yeah Suzanne this is this is great um I
definitely want to start by tapping into
your personal story how you got into
technology you know my career started in
technology I have a passion for it I
feel like it's an incredible an
incredible lever for economic
advancement I actually dropped out of
college so it afforded me a path that I
would not have normally had quite
frankly so I'd love to hear about your
story in tech
ST
yeah
for me I've always loved technology when
when my dad would come home he'd bring
all kinds of computer
electronic components and so I'd always
stay up till like midnight one o'clock
playing around with them and then making
it worth of like I'd opened them up to
see how they were and you know obviously
he wasn't thrilled about that but you
know I've always just had the you know
fascination with just like you know
computers and technology and
unfortunately I didn't really get that
opportunity to you know kind of pursue
it immediately there were a number of
personal circumstances and you know
quite frankly I I didn't think that you
know I was meant for technology that was
for smarter people that was for people
that you know that gets heed and math
that wasn't necessarily for me so it
wasn't until I guess many years later
when yet I I had been working in
financial services and you know great at
my job I hated my job
after a while it was just like I can't I
cannot possibly keep doing this and you
know I just kept revisiting in my mind
well why not why not give this a shot so
I decided okay I'm going to go back to
school I'm gonna you know do internships
and bootcamp hackathons volunteer work I
mean you name it and I just really held
myself accountable for my success and I
was lucky enough to land an internship
at IBM as a you know Technical Sales
Engineer and I did a really good job and
they ended up hiring me full-time so so
that's right where I am now so my
journey took a lot longer but you know
I'm really glad that I did it as you
said it's really opened a lot of
opportunities for me I've had the you
know true pleasure of helping other
people which is really important to me
and giving people the tools so that they
can be successful and realized like
economic success so I don't regret
making that decision
MW
can you talk a
little in a little bit more detail about
the path that that really weird
uncharted path of hackathons and user
groups and you know conferences and
how you navigated that effectively to
that internship that resulted in your
your official career change
ST
yeah so I
don't want to make it out to be that
every experience yielded great things
that weren't moments where I was
frustrated like it's definitely daunting
you know walking into a hackathon you
have basic understanding of Python and
then you have all of these people who
are like SuperDuper coders and you're
like whoa I'm not I'm not on your level
but you know at the same time it's that
willingness to be uncomfortable and to
grow from it like the common thing is
growth and comfort don't exist together
and that's definitely true like you you
have to kind of put yourself out there
you may not always be successful but you
will definitely learn from you know each
you know conference each hackathon boot
camp you will learn and grow from it
that's and that's the important part and
so as I was going from experience to
experience to experience I always kept
that in my in the back of my head and
that is the thing there wasn't the
obligatory happy hour when things you
know one sideways but you know you just
don't stay in that place for long like
you just keep moving and keep holding
yourself to that goal
MW
can we rewind back
to the the young kid who was getting C's
in math I wanted I want to talk about
that a little bit because I think
I've
got two sons -one’s 21 and ones
19- the 19 year old loves technology.
He's currently at University of
Tennessee Knoxville getting a computer
engineering degree. And in high school
here in Nashville, he was in a program, it was
an IT Academy. And it was a track
that you could go on to like really
focus on programming, and networking, and
all these great things, which was really
really good
just incorporated into his high
school curriculum. And I think watching
him go through that process really
eliminated for me a lot about the
difficulties that women -that young girls,
I shouldn't say women- that young girls
face
when trying to engage in STEM. In
school, like there is this weird
expectation around who really is cut out
for a career in the STEM fields, and
you know, we're adults. You know so we
went to school and in a previous era
where I can only assume it was worse.
As a boy, nobody ever told me that I
couldn't you know be in technology when
I was younger. What was that like for you?
I mean... I sort of feel like
the C’s in math may not have only been
based on what your
strengths were, but may have even had
some social implications.
ST
Yeah there's
definitely a lot of social implications.
So one of the things that a lot of
researchers cite is that for girls to
successfully, you know go through school
and into STEM careers, a lot of what
helps is when they have role models who
look like them and you know have gone
through shared experiences. If you're
really not interacting with people like
that, you know like if you're not seeing
it actively, if most of the people -you
know women- that you encounter are in
different professions, or quite frankly
just they're like, “why on earth which you
want to pursue STEM?” You're probably
not going to be very likely to kind of cultivate that spark
within you. You're kind of just going to
go with the flow.
So there's definitely that social
element and you know I
talk a little bit about the academic
part that unfortunately there are some
teachers that do hold bias against girls
-and to some extent people of color- and
it sometimes manifests itself in
classroom participation, and you know in
a number of other ways. But sometimes
either people in our own you know back
yard, or people in our own you know
communities, don't actively like promote
it.
And I think part -there there are two
parts of it- I think part of it is you
know they themselves may not know, you
know, about you know like the diversity
of careers, and you know that women do
belong here, and women of color belong
here. But I also think that for some
people they're like, “oh that's a boys...
that boy stuff.” And if you are
interested in it, you're a tomboy and
you'll eventually grow out of it. Which
is like obviously not true.
MW
right right
right so so now fast-forward you know
you had this you had this environmental
impact that you weren't aware of because
you were a child but it wasn't acting
your decisions and you you went the path
of you know a finance career you were
good at it
you didn't like it you decided to sort
of return to something you naturally
loved this this thing that you learned
from you know your engagements with your
dad when you go back into this space
you're gonna I know what the answer is
here you're gonna see that there's not a
lot of people who look like you right
there's not a lot of black people
there's not a lot of women there as
you're going into these hackathons into
these conferences how did how did that
make you feel did you use that as as
fuel to say wow this is really important
that you know clearly this is an
opportunity and and I probably didn't
know about it before because there
weren't those role models you know
available to me or was it intimidating
like how did you feel just personally
ST
yeah so I mean surprised I didn't notice
it at first I think I had my own tears
and trepidations about this thing that I
was about to do for like just trying to
get my my internal house in order to
kind of like navigate all of this I
think was like kind of ruling my brain
but then as I started to give way to
some of that you know fear and anxiety
and I really started looking at like oh
wow there really are not any women of
color here like and not just in classes
but conferences and you know workplaces
like I was like starving
to notice and I remember someone said oh
it's just because you know women of
color aren't interested and that's and
that's why we're seeing such such low
numbers and I said I refuse to accept
that that can't be that can't be right
and as I you know was kind of going
through my own education learning about
organizations like black girlcode you
know learning about you know the
different types of organizations for
people of color in technology it started
to become more and more clear that you
know this is obviously an ongoing you
know issue this is something that we all
like need to address and I and I say we
need to address it because it really is
a business imperative and a society
imperative to have more diversity in
technology like when you think about
artificial intelligence you know you
don't want people you know who think the
same and have only had a very limited
set of experiences you know programming
your loan application your mortgage
application I don't you have serious
effects that can continue to marginalize
communities and so for me you know it's
beyond my own comfort it's just more of
an issue like this needs to happen
MW
right
I mean it definitely feels like in in
this moment we are consistently talking
about the systemic racism you know and
the systemic biases that exist
throughout the country and and you're
right you know what's really really
scary and I think it's actually been
accelerated by covert 19 is we are
moving into a world of automation we've
already been doing it for consumer
things but it's it's starting to make
real decisions that are gonna have real
long lasting impact as you as you
mentioned financial decisions right
people's ability to get access to to to
financing hiring decisions right you
know a lot of hiring systems people
don't know this but
hiring systems are shifting to you know
an automatic data-driven analysis before
they even arrive at at an individual to
review it and a lot of things could be
baked into those algorithms so I think
you're right there there is an
imperative to make sure we're not
codifying biases that we're not even
aware of and the only way you can do
that is to have a diverse set of people
at the table that when you're working on
the algorithm someone says ah you may
not know this but you know
ST
yep exactly
exactly
MW
So what moved you to to write a
book? That is a big -I know, it's a... I'm
sort of on the other side of it right
now and getting ready to launch mine- it
is a huge endeavor to write a book. You
know, what moved you from having
this journey and getting this career at
IBM to feeling like wow you know, “(A) I can
be an authority on this and (B) you know,
clearly you felt called to to do this, to
do this work. What sort of
drove you there?
ST
Yeah and I just want
to say congratulations on your upcoming
book, really I’ve been excited for that.
My journey you know becoming an author
of this book, it was definitely not
planned. I was offered the opportunity
to the publisher, and you know they got
to know me, and asked, you know “have you
ever thought about you know writing a
book to help other women of color based
largely on your experiences... you know
making this transition?” And you know I
will be honest, it was a very like, “I
don't know if I'm necessarily ready for
this.” I mean you know... the most I had
written was like academic papers, and I
can barely write an email, but now you
people want me to write this very
monumental, you know this is very big and
important thing. And you know it took a
little bit of soul-searching, but I said,
“you know if I can make life better for
someone else, if I can save them some of
degrees, so if I can talk candidly
about some of the issues that they can
have
so that they can not only, you know,
survive in a tech career, but you know
thrive, and be happy, and exceed me, then I’d
be foolish not to take that opportunity.”
So you know I worked with the
writing team, you know I worked -you know
we developed the plan together- and you
know over a year's time -on top of
working full-time- you know I just wrote wherever I could.
MW
I
know that hustle I know that life man
well you know thank you thank you for
doing it I it is it is such an important
book
have you had companies reaching out to
you now realizing they don't know enough
about this topic they don't know enough
about how to engage properly with women
of color in terms of helping to support
them to be successful in their career
and you know hopefully buying copies of
the book for themselves but also like
reaching out to you for you know deeper
levels of engagement
ST
yeah so when the
book was you know originally published
in April you know there was definitely
people you know kind of reaching out
given the magnitude of what's going on
in society today with you know the
protest and you know killing of George
Floyd you've seen this kind of ratchet
up considerably in terms of people
saying oh there's a lot I don't know
there's a lot I don't get and I need to
have these conversations so it I mean
it's been it's been gratifying for me
you know as a professional to be able to
you know have these dialogues and to you
know be in this conversation and try to
move this needle along but yeah there's
definitely a lot more activity and so
it's always like a good problem to have
in that okay everyone gets it now let's
let's do something concrete and let's
keep things moving forward
MW
yeah so so
can we talk about like some of the
things in the tech world that have been
happening so as as a programmer
you know the the nomenclature of master
and slave is baked into web technology
like you know there are some things that
you just if you're if you're a black
person and you get into tech you know
specifically you get into the code side
of it you just have to kind of go okay I
guess that's what we're doing here right
you know because they're just in there
in there they're baked in and you know
quite frankly technology is not a place
that has a history of being culturally
sensitive right I mean I think that is
something as we've diversified the space
more and more there's more and more
advocacy for it but recently as code has
kind of converged around github as like
the online community and platform for
coders everywhere they recently made a
really big change to their nomenclature
specifically around master slave do you
want to like talk about that a little
bit
ST
yeah so I I remember seeing the
headline this past weekend that they you
know for the for the master repository
they were going to change that to Maine
and change several other places where we
talked about master and slave
nomenclature and yeah I appreciate that
I do and like I do think that that's an
important thing to kind of talk about
how we you know from the small things
that we've done you know to kind of you
know make people of color feel small
make them feel less important make them
feel you know not that they're not safe
so you know on the one hand I do applaud
that effort I will be very honest with
you in that I'm like if you really want
to drive this discussion about bringing
or you know black people people color
into technology and specifically github
you need to hire more black people and
people of color into github you area but
it's on the surface is a very thoughtful
thing to do but that in itself is not
going to move
the needle for the thing that needs to
happen like we need more concrete action
we you know we need to be mindful of
like what we're doing in terms of
recruiting practices taking the bias out
of these you know practices and we need
to have the hard conversations about why
people may not be you know feel safe or
they're leaving either I mean these are
the things that need to happen on a very
basic level so I couldn't help but give
that a little bit of shade when I can I
read it yeah but yeah it's important
that we follow it up
MW
yeah I think that's
right I mean and I think and I think you
are right that the nomenclature changes
the the removal of particular brands
that are just inherently offensive these
are you know to their credit these are
sort of the quick wins that make all the
sense in the world and you want to see
those things done and when they're done
it's like that's awesome right I think
that what what I'm starting to have
conversations about it you know I
mentioned to you that I've been having a
very similar conversation not the same
one but a very similar conversation in
the healthcare industry for the last
week and a half and right you know the
the real conversation is about do we
understand what we mean when we say
systemic racism like do do we do we
understand what that means do we
understand like how baked in it is into
the system and how pervasive it is and
how significantly it disadvantages
people of color you know especially
black people because as ISO for example
like I've been starting to do some
anecdotal research in the venture
capital space which is you know sort of
an offshoot of the tech space quite
frankly right and it's like there are
people of color there but they're not
black people so it's like
you know this is where certain terms you
know it where it is getting to this port
where we're like we got it like to talk
about black people for a second you know
what I mean
because because I'm actually seeing you
know a good contingent of people of
Asian heritage is you know represented
in technology and in venture capital in
in leadership positions in in really
strong positions which is which is great
but really the big deficit is are out
black people it's um you know it's it's
it's pretty significant there
specifically so can we talk a little bit
about organizations like you know black
girls code and and other organizations
that you want to mention and because
because I think what is great about
those organizations is they are founded
with an understanding of the systems and
how deep they are and like how much work
has to go into resolving them right and
how a quick win can't really resolve
them it's just not possible right and
and even like education can't really
resolve them when you talk about
changing hiring that's a monumental
thing and then beyond that how do you
ensure that person is successful in a
system where even once they're hired
they are going to be disadvantaged right
right
what what what organizations can you
point people to because a lot of what
we're we're seeing people look for right
now is resource it's like okay I get it
I understand oh right that I don't know
how bad it is but I'm starting to get a
sense of I don't know how bad it is
point you know I know I need to read
things I know I need to watch movies I
don't need to watch 13th right you know
people know they do but
in the tech
world what are the organizations you
would point people to to say look you
know these are organizations you can
start to support you can sponsor you can
engage you know that will really help
you to figure out how to navigate your
organization to a more inclusive place
ya know that's that's a that's a great
question and something that you know you
you know as as business leaders and and
other you know managers is something you
want to keep in mind one organization
that I've I had the pleasure of getting
to know the last couple of months is is
npower
that's and like Nancy and the word power
so they're based in Brooklyn New York
but they have chapters in different
states and what they do on top of
offering technology courses to women of
color and to military veterans they also
offer research and white paper to the
broader tech companies about these are
things that you want to be thinking
about if you want to have you know women
of color excel you know in technical
careers at your organization in fact I
think people may release those report
today kind of outlining the strategies
that employers can use to really be
partners and help women of color succeed
so so that's a great organization to
reach out to I know that AI for all also
has kind of the same type of model where
they you know provide education to get a
marginalized groups but they also have
that education T you know they help with
diversity and inclusion program so that
you're making more you know robust ones
as well
chick tech is also another one that I'm
familiar with and I do volunteer work
for again they provide three meeting you
know resources but also to help
practitioners and companies as well as
others who are interested in
diversifying their pool to really you
know get that done rather than have it
be just this high-level must be nice you
know type of type of pipe dream like to
make it a reality
got it
MW
got it
I want to end the
conversation with you
-not necessarily paraphrasing- but maybe
speaking to women of color who are
thinking about tech, or already have
decided this is what they want to do but
are very early in their journey, you know.
What are some of the key principles,
points of advice, that you would
offer to those women?
ST
Yeah so the thing that I always stress
is the importance of developing a good
network. And I think that was one of the
things that I struggled with initially
because -you know I'm not a
social butterfly, I don't know how I got
into sales- it takes me some time to
you know warm up to people. And so when I
first started, I kind of thought about it
as, “oh I all I need to do is just focus
on my skills, I don't need to focus on
anything else.” And I found out pretty
quickly how wrong I was.
Like you need other people. So when I say
network, I mean your mentors, your
sponsors, you know people that you have
informational interviews with, your
friends. I mean these are the people that
are not only going to help you you know
get into tech, but they're gonna really
help you when you're facing challenges
in your, you know, career. And so you're
going to need them you know now more
than ever. The second -and you know just
briefly- is the careers are diverse. You
know there's so many things that you can
do within the technology industry, and
the thing that I try to dispel
-especially when I when I talk to people
coming in- it's not just
software engineering and software
development, it's not just cybersecurity,
but there's you know product development,
there's user experience design, there's
what I do -consulting-. I mean the sky is
you know limitless in terms of what you
can pursue, and you know the places that
you can go to do these careers are
everywhere. So rather than thinking about
the Facebook's and the Amazon’s, you know
technology touches everything. So you
know, think a little bit more broadly.
Like it blew my mind that Bank of America
was like a top technology recruiter. I
was like, “oh I had no idea.” But yeah it's
like it's the places that you wouldn't
think that these types of jobs exist.
And finally just a continuous learning
mindset. It’s
never going to be “one and done,” and so
just embrace that all the time.
MW
oh who said it all
right there that is the perfect thing to
end on is continuous learning forever
like really as long as you're gonna be
in it if you're going to be relevant if
you're gonna add value you have to have
a consistent beginner's mind and you
have to carve out time and and I think
you have to like it
like you have to like the continuity of
the learning experience otherwise you'll
get bailed out because there is no learn
I'm done and then leverage that for the
rest of my career that's just not what
technology is about not at all not at
all you're absolutely right awesome well
Suzanne I'm so glad we got to do this
show and I'm so excited for your book
and for hopefully all the companies it's
going to help to get better at this this
is going to make companies better having
a more diverse workforce that is
included at the highest levels and that
means you have to make space you have to
develop that talent you have to adjust
your culture because part of the reason
why these cultures have not been
cultures where diverse people can thrive
is because unknowingly they've been
uncomfortable cultures for for diverse
people to to to thrive in so there's a
lot of work to do here but your work is
is part of the the collective body of
work that's gonna help us all be
successful so thank you so much for
doing it well and everybody out there
you need to follow Suzanne and Susanna
Tetrick for on Instagram as Suzanne
Tetrick on on Twitter we belong in tech
comm go check out the website go buy her
book today on Amazon women of color and
tech it's a great read I'm two-thirds of
the way through it which is saying a lot
because I have no time to do anything
right now between this show and
everything else I'm working on a big
part of that is because I have my own
book coming out in less than two weeks
creating orchestrate coming to you live
on June 30th looking for people to buy
it on that day on Amazon we're trying to
get a best-seller so please help me make
that happen
as always please subscribe to my podcast
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that is it we will be back tomorrow on
Juneteenth I'm taking the day off but I
am doing a show with my good friend Lana
Nell Matthews who's one of the co-chairs
of the Nashville chapter of my brother's
keeper we're gonna talk about just the
significance of this moment the the
growth of the awareness and the support
and the embrace of Juneteenth and you
know what what people can do to to
continue to keep this movement going so
until tomorrow thank you so much for
tuning in and let's build a new normal
y'all peace