Today’s guest on #MWL is Mitch Joel, a seasoned marketing agency executive and the founder of Six Pixels Group. We talk about brands, commerce, community, and what’s next for us all as we build our new normal together.

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what's up happy wednesday another

episode of marcus whitney live

and uh sometimes facebook is a good


sometimes facebook is a good thing it

brings people back into your life who

you haven't seen for literally

over a decade and uh that's the case for


i started writing this book and my good

friend kate o'neal was like you need to

be part of a couple of groups and one of

those groups

uh was was started uh by

by the headlining guest that my friend

dave delaney and i brought to bar camp

nashville in 2007 which is in so many


the beginning of my uh

sort of people being aware of who i was

quite frankly that event

and uh and this guy was like such a star

to me the way that he

uh captivated everybody on stage

everything that he had accomplished

and uh now he's just a friend who i've

like reconnected with

uh and and so i'm so excited to have the

one and the only

mitch joel on the show mitch how are you




 well after that i mean

how can i be but but great yeah it's uh

we we actually pre-recorded a podcast

for my podcast six pixels of separation

a couple weeks back and i was saying

that it it is one of those things where

facebook is really weird because

while we hadn't really connected we've

been connected the whole time and so

i've been

following and literally watching your

hair grow like literally

all the way back then and then just

watching your amazing ascent and

business and creativity and

all the all the things you're doing and

when you said you had a book out i was

like well we got

you got to come on six pixels and talk

it up and then you know here we are

doing this

and it's uh it's just such a pleasure to

see you and a pleasure to

just watch that growth it's amazing to

see you are very inspiring so thank you



well thank you my friend and uh let's

let's uh let's jump right into you

to your background which there's no way

to possibly fit it in and just to sort


three minutes i'd like to allocate to it

but if you would just

give the audience a little bit of

background about who you are



yeah i know it's it's been a long fun

career for sure i started off in the

late 80s as a rock music journalist

uh first gig was uh interviewing tommy

lee from motley crew

it's it's all downhill from there um

then i wound up  publishing magazines and

this is pre-internet and then the

internet sort of started kicking in

and i was publishing some of these

articles on the internet i mean

you gotta remember back in like 90 91

the big innovation at the time was

hyperlinks that you could

click on one link and go to another page

versus typing in the entire

web address in the bar for each page

which is what it was it's bizarre to

think about

um and i i done that for a bit i wound

up working as an editor for a local

community paper that was trying to

inspire young businesses and

entrepreneurs to stay active in the city

of montreal where i live

and i wanted meeting people who were

launching this thing called a search

engine which nobody really knew about

because google didn't exist we're

talking about the alta vista yahoo aol

search days

and that was a great experience i mean

we built a lot of the sort of

modern sales advertising platforms that

we see today like everything from the

google model to the facebook model to


we were doing before google and facebook

existed did a small stint uh for a

mobile commerce a mobile content company

rather which is going back like 20 years

so this was before there was even

interoperability between carriers for

text messaging so if you're on verizon

you can only text people on verizon wow

no mobile web browser no smartphone um

i started a record label to sort of hit

back into the music industry that i love

so much wound up

just ditching that a little bit the

albums did well but i decided to be

involved in this project called twist

image which became a marketing agency

uh myself and three other business

partners that we grew to be one of the


national rather international


uh digital marketing agencies uh sold

that to wpp about six

ish years ago that agency became

a large global agency called miram which

still exists today under the wunderman

thompson brand

i left about two years ago and and the

real thing i was doing is

when i started the agency back in the

early 2000s i started blogging in the

very early days of it

called six pixels of separation i

started a podcast shortly thereafter

which still happens to this day i think

it's one of the longest running podcasts

if not the

longest running business podcast and i

do a lot of speaking and i was speaking

50 60 times a year up until covid 19

hit um and i've written two books one of

them was called six pixels of separation

the second one was called control alt


and uh thinking about starting up again

uh thinking and praying that i can get

back up on a stage soon

and still just enjoying collecting

conversations and getting to

have chats with people like you it's a




 So I… I love uh I love people who

 are still in the game but were in the

 game. When the game first began like writing

 the initial rules of the game, right?



 It wasn't a game yeah it wasn't a game.




  there was no game.

 Um and I can't say that I was there you

 know. So I...I always am interested in hearing just some of

 the stories from back then. Like... like to

 me it's just fascinating the idea

 of how the initial business model for

 online advertising

 was created. You know like now this is

 something that is so...

 you know the idea of an ad auction for

 example, right?  As just a business model

 and a piece of technology is so

 commonplace, but man like it wasn't

 always a thing you know.



 No no in fact I mean it was crazy when I...

 when I sat down at that job

 I... you know online advertising was banner

 ads and the big

 win that we thought we would have is

 that if somebody did a search

 for a particular term we could associate

 the banner ad

 to that search and when we did that… I

 mean these were massive databases

 literally on

 excel spreadsheets that like I would

 have to hard code into the actual search

 algorithm.  Like that's how

  new and ridiculous it was and I don't

 know how to code there was a copy and






 And yeah we thought about

 because the search results it was a meta

 search engine called

 And because the search results that we

 were aggregating would often return not

 great results

 our our idea in our department was like

 we should sell the top result. And at the

 time the ceo and founder thought that

 that was completely poisoning the well

 like you can't do that.

 And the CTO actually went off and built

 a tangential

 search engine to demonstrate how he

 could through auction

 or bidding rank the actual search


 And again we actually thought about

 launching that as a separate search

  engine unto itself.

 We didn't. Um and then clearly

 there were platforms out there that then

 developed into what google

 really optimized. But to give you an idea

 about those early days,

 Larry and Sergey from google will often

 talk about how they,

 in the beginning days of google, they

 would hop on the phone with other


 and have conversations about what

 technology they were doing and how they

 were doing stuff.

 And I lwas actually on that call with

 Larry and Sergey when they were still

 sort of in university thinking about


 what could this be. So it's been a long

 amazing incredible ride and for me it's

 such a pleasure. Like i get to go to the

 hubspot event inbound which is a massive







 And I always walk in I'm like there's

 like 20,000 people here whatever it isj

 and i'm like

 there was 200 in the first days...





MJ a hotel at a user group.






 And to

 just see that like the industry

 is so big and so strong and and

 humbling. Like nobody knows who I am

 which is great you know. 







 It's an

 amazing thing to just be... know that you were really thinking

 aggressively in early days about what

 could this be.






  It was great.



right and and and i

think like for

it's like none of the the people at


and it's not true that none of them but

you know many of the people at inbound

don't know because they

you know their introduction to digital

marketing is this idea of inbound

marketing i mean like that's how far

removed they are from it but

uh just to sort of rewind back to to the

experience that we had at

barcamp and bringing you down you know

bar camp nashville was nashville's

uh second i'll call it the second

because the first was actually thrown by

a guy named rex hammock

who threw an event called blog nashville



i know 




he brought and he brought dave weiner to town okay

and i remember being there just being

like oh my god like super big

eyes and just this guy created blogging

you know what i mean like

right and so and it was a small room it

was a small room just a few people that

were there

bar camp we had maybe 600 people that

came to that event but that was like the


of so many now events that have that

have happened in the city and you're

exactly right there are now people who

you know they're in town they work for

lyft or warby parker or whatever

they don't know who i am you know what i

mean like this that's just a small scale

that's not even talking about like the

evolution from

one of the first search engines ever to

a massive hubspot




right and and even that it's

like i wasn't

in the room in cupertino when like bill

gates and

right you know all these people were

talking about the personal computer like

i was

too young like i was there in the early

80s getting an atari 800

i was a customer i was the guy who had

compute magazine and tried to

you know play with all that stuff so i

always had that fascination with media

and technology

and brands and marketing but there's

always that sort of before moment but

you fast forward to today i actually

think that in things like facebook's

private groups you kind of have

that's that sentiment of it it's still

kind of there and still kind of powerful

so i still

i still believe in it in a big way for





i'm really interested in uh the the

transition from being

on the technology side to being on the

agency side you know you had that little

stint in between of the the record label


uh which feels like that could be an

entire show but we'll leave that for

another conversation

to move to the agency side i'm very

interested in that

my my second ever job was at a small it

was as a programmer at a small agency so

i'm very familiar and

i loved that job because i came in

and i inherited you you'll know what

this is like i inherited

like four projects that each were

running on a different technology stack

okay and i loved it because i got to

learn all these different technologies

so i learned java i learned asp

it wasn't even dot net at the time i learned

this wacky

database called fourth dimension and it

was just like so much creativity there

was creativity at the project level and

then like you know all the different

tools we were using and just to set the

timing on this this was 2002

when i was working 



yeah that’s about when we started

twist images 




okay right and then and then the first

13 14 years of my career were all around

digital marketing whether it was emma

email marketing building that pla

technology platform or the time i spelt

it spent at the agency or later on

working on moon toes and doing social

commerce you know that was where i


was building technology that sachi and

sachi and all these like big name

you know agencies were using for their

big big clients and so

uh the agency dynamic has always been a

really interesting one for me

and for you to have started it at that

time you know what i remember about that

time is that the technology was not very

robust yet okay so we were still

building all the frameworks

the for for context the iphone didn't

come along until 2007 literally

came around when barcamp happened when

you came down



i remember


 the iphone had just basically

launched right

that's where we were so talk about the

role of the agency

in the evolution of technology and the

evolution of digital marketing which has


really the foundation for the

money-making engine that technology is

today the internet is today



 it's a

staggering thing

to think about really because it seems

like yesterday

to me and to you normally and even when

i think about like why did we launch six

pixels of separation as a blog and the

answer was because

nobody thought this was a thing like

people would be like tell me again why i

need a website like i would be in the

convincing business






 and if you think about that in

relation to just where we're at

now it's it's almost jaw-dropping to


what happened so for us it was less

about being an

agency in fact we we kind of coined this

term called multi-marketing

because we like the idea of multimedia

at the time and the idea that like it's

not just about

building a website or doing an online ad

it's about that cohesive

we'd call that now omni channel or

whatever you know



multimedia was for everyone who does it

wasn't around back then

that was the word back then and we had

cd-roms and all this other kind of stuff




for sure we for sure at the time there

was a lot of 3d animation work that we

were doing that was

that would be deployed on an on a

physical disk

and i think what made the agency really

fundamentally different

wasn't just that we were completely

opposite of what everyone was doing

it was in the fact that we were very

laser focused on this idea that you

could now have real interactions with

real human beings the power of a website

and at the time the infrastructure that

existed with traditional ad agencies and

direct marketing

they just it was almost like it's not

worth it for us to bother in fact i


countless times agencies saying that

just to even build a technological

infrastructure wouldn't make sense for

them just

how they are actually capitalized and


so for us it was it was really good it

was really lucky

really good timing because we wound up

being the go-to

i wound up building a platform through

the blog and my media appearances my

work with the associations

that people would inevitably come to me

so it was direct clients it was other


and then when the monetization became

more of a reality

everybody dove in so i had a bit of an

opportunity to be somewhat of a blue


before it became the bloody red sea but

by the time it became the bloody red sea

we had a very unique voice and unique

positioning in the marketplace

that gave us access to a significant

amount of clients you know it's a story

we never

told but we would never be the agency of

record because we weren't

you know fully integrated we were purely

digital and there were many instances

with major

national international brands where we

were generating more revenue than the

agency of record

and you know we used to joke about it

being like pac-man

you know we're just gobbling up the

pellets on the board like that's the

idea it doesn't matter whether with aor

or not so

it was an amazing thing to be part of a


that was fundamentally shifting and to

make it

sound somewhat bragging but i'm not it's

like we were right

you know like ultimately we were right

so it's fun



you're not bragging at all i'm gonna i'm

gonna shift into another place where you

were a leader

um and that is to talk about this idea

and you just talked about it

this idea about the about the thought

leadership so mitch i mean i have to say

um i just think I have to say because I

think this is really important

to frame up timing for people okay. 2007

was the year I went to South by

Southwest. Okay so that was in March

of 2007. Now if anybody sort of follows

all the stuff out there

and you follow a guy like Gary

Vaynerchuk right and you really know his


He will talk a lot about that 2007 South

by Southwest.

He will talk about that South by

Southwest because

that South by Southwest is the one where

Twitter launched.

It was the one where Zuck was walking

around. You know I've got pictures of me

hanging out with Matt Mullenweg

from WordPress when WordPress was just

one of the bloggy platforms and it was

not just was not a big deal. Like I knew

about it because I was a PHP programmer.



Yeah no I was on movable type forever.



Exactly movable type was big. It was a

pearl platform right

so so the the reason why I want to frame

this up is that

uh Dave Delaney is the one who brought

you to the table because Dave

was like the first social person I knew

Dave had a podcast back then two boobs

and a baby.

Okay and Dave was my partner and he's

from Canada uh and

he was my partner in Barcamp and he was

like we gotta have Mitch Joel

and when I started to dig into what you

were doing and the podcast and sort of

all that stuff I was like

oh I knew about it from the programmer

perspective but I didn't know about this

idea of a digital thought leader.

That what that like I didn't know what

that what that was yet.

Okay um and like I'm saying Gary

Vaynerchuk didn't happen yet.



You know no in fact yeah when when Gary

came along

and I... I yeah I've gotten to know him

over the years he's

the most imp... a very impressive

entrepreneur i mean to say he he'd

multiply he

multi-lapped me would be an




 I mean he crushed it

there's no question.



Yeah yeah and and my general take when i

when i met him was

i've been saying this for five years

already like it wasn't an insulting way

it was just sort of like good i'm glad

there's someone else who's gonna bang

this drum excessively loudly which he


and i remember we were backstage in an

event that we were both at he told me he

was gonna launch this

vayner media company the vayner agency

and uh he said what do you think and i

said look gary

the truth of the matter is you've done

so well with demonstrating that you can

build a brand around yourself the real

question is are you going to be able to

do it for others

and the truth is many thought leaders

that we knew at the time

couldn't and didn't uh they would

ultimately fail they were good at

talking about themselves good at

tweeting good at building a platform

and in a day and age it didn't have an

instagram and all this sort of stuff






 but when it came to really helping

others do the same

it wasn't a transferable skill we had

done it we had done it with brands we

had brought them onto social we brought

them on to digital

and and it was a thing where i wasn't

saying it in a facetious let's see if

you can do it i meant it like

it's a different focus and it's a

different attitude and

i could i could see it in his eyes his

tenacity to to just have no quit in him

it was amazing and i got to tell you

like as he progressed to to the level he

has and is at

i i love it you know i don't always

necessarily agree with his content or

the approach and that that's fine you

don't have to agree but

i appreciate i really appreciate the

fact that

he is able to give everyone else who's

trying to do it

an understanding of how big the

assertable market is






it's a really powerful thought right i'd

be like oh i have 60 000 followers on

twitter i must be like

and then he's got like you know three

million and you're like oh okay like

i've done nothing and and the window is

the road down is much longer and bigger

than i could have ever imagined

so it's an amazing so so yes

it's clear that whenever somebody comes

along and has a book an idea an article

a post

that i can look at and be like oh yeah i

said that five years ago

10 years ago 20 years ago but i have

a different sentiment which is that like

good like it's an

all boats can rise thing 






i've been

very fortunate in my own way

he's been very fortunate in his own way

you've been very fortunate in your own


and as long as we can give back and help

others and continue to grow the industry

that's where the true opportunistic

mitch lies you know



yeah i look i i i love that that wasn't

where i thought we were gonna go but i'm

glad that

we i'm glad that we went there what what

i was what i was

just gonna say was that you are

as far as i can tell an original you

know in terms of

what you did with twist image um the


that the way that you would grow the

business would be through

leveraging the very thing you were

selling and using that to create thought


and to teach people right you know this

whole edutainment kind of

kind of model um 






that was

i i you know you you may tell me you

were inspired by somebody but i just

need to tell you that

2007 was a very formative year for me

but it was also a very formative year

for everybody as it pertains to the

digital when you showed up at barcamp


you already had all the stuff you were

you were already doing it you already

had the agency you already had the

podcast you already had the thought

leadership platform and

and uh yeah you were an original i just

that's all i just want to say



 well i i i

look at it a different way i look at it

more in the sense of because of the


and the other things i was doing we were

able to monetize it

and i think when we found that this is a

really good line of business

it became this really dynamic

conversation with myself and my business

partners about

you know one the fact that it offsets

business development which is a huge

factor in the agency business you burn a

lot of money pitching but if you're

making a lot of money speaking writing


doing media appearances 







Pretty amazing 



it’s it flips  it on its head yeah



for sure and then the other thing that

we wound up learning

through the acquisition process with wpp

was that

like they were and other potential

acquirers were just

impressed with this idea that we had

monetized it right they

sort of looked around their world and

thought all the agency heads that they

know who have

brands or thought leadership have never

monetized if they do that as an engine

to to drive clients and we had somehow

managed to do both in this in this

strange world

and then just having ownership of a

platform right like six pixels became

my jam it became the thing that i do and

it's you know thankfully they were kind

enough to to let me have it when i left

um and it still is part of my dna

but it's amazing to have what is

essentially like a magazine

like i don't just contribute to someone

else's magazine i have my own publishing


and uh those are very powerful tenants

even today if you're thinking about

running a business i think which is the

stuff i talk about



so that's a good segue i want to talk

about six pixels um for for for a bit

um when i uh i'm so i'm i'm working with

scribe media which i found because of

write and rant the facebook group that

You uh




Yeah Dr. Max



  That you set up so thank you

so much they did a fantastic job with my




Oh good, he's great 


yeah i'm really really happy

i i've never even talked to tucker but


that team has been incredible and so um

i've got a pr person kelly who i work

with at scribe

and you know she's been booking podcasts

for me which is part of why i'm so tired

right now

um but uh when i told you know she was

like hey

have you gotten any podcasts and i was

like yeah i got this one i got that one

i got six pixels she was like six pixels

holy crap how did you get six pixels i

was like oh well i you know i've known

mitch for over over 10 years and she was

like oh that's amazing you got mitch

that's okay great great because i was

going to try to figure out how we could

pitch it or you know what i mean

um but i mean i think it just it just

speaks to what a big deal

uh six pixels is because of

what a cornerstone in the business


innovation marketing thought leadership

world it is so

you know can you just talk about six

pixels and you know

what what it represents 


We...we forget but

back in the day there wasn't twitter or

facebook or instagram there was really

just blogging.



That's it.



And so I was on this ferocious

 pace of vlogging daily. Like hat tip to

 Seth Godin who still maintains

 this...this incredible schedule that I...I'm

 always inspired by and jealous of. To be

 honest he's the greatest.

 And I just thought you know it's Sunday

 uh you know if god rests on Sunday maybe

 I should take a break too.

 And podcasting was brand new and I just

 thought you know i'll ramble into a mic

 for 10, 15 minutes and see how it goes.

 And those those terrible episodes are still

 there to witness.

 Um and then over over the years I kind

 of realized that there's... I have a lot of

 blind spots in a lot of areas of life, in business,

 and...and I thought wouldn't it be great to

 just sort of spend time with the people

 who are really inspiring me people like seth

 godin as an example or

 johnson or whomever, right? And you know

 They would have books they would have a

 Telling article and I would hit them up

 and say hey do you want to come on my

 dinky little podcast?

 And you know 730 plus episodes later,

 after doing it every week,

 I often tell people that all i really do

 is i collect conversations. And

 it's a head fake. The whole show's a head

 fake it's a bruise. It's a place for me to who's challenged

 with an idea who read a book that

 that I’m inspired by, to spend a selfish

 hour with a...a brilliant thinker. And the head

 fake is that I publish it and I let

 other people listen.

 But it's completely selfish. It's the

 most selfish project I've ever worked on

 in my entire life

 and it's the most selfish project that I

 will continue to work on for the rest of

 my life. And I don't care if I have any

 listeners so

 check it out if you want but I don't

 care I'm still gonna do it.




i so man do i love everything that you

just said

because um i i'm not sure

that that is the going in truth

when you actually do commit to doing

something like this it may have been for


you know it may have been for you for me

you know i had done a podcast

back in 2005 about programming and it

was it was

to help me get networked in the php

world and it was very successful at that

it was very

you know i had an intention with it um

for for this i knew i was leading up to

a book launch

and i knew i needed to be engaging with

people on a regular basis

just you know so that when the book

launch came

i was able to say hey look you know i've

been engaging in providing

value you know for a year year and a

half and now here's a book

you know please plea please celebrate

and by the way it really does work for

all that like

it does work there's no question it's

it's empirical my my book launch was


only because of my newsletter and my

podcast over the last year and a half


that's why okay but

you are absolutely right that this is

a selfish endeavor once you really

commit to it

it's like it's like even right now you

know we're gonna finish this

conversation up and i'll have gotten

a half hour of wisdom and inspiration

from you know somebody who i i really

think is



yeah but it's a two-way street marcus

because we already spent an hour


doing six pixels we spent time together

reconnecting before both

of us decided to have each other on each

other's show 






and that

you know i think it was jeffrey gittimer

who wrote who said you know

my network is my net worth and i

that's why i talk about collecting

conversations what i really mean is

friends and insights and people who i i

can call

a peer and i think that you're right

that the intent may have been that which

might be for you the book launch and

for me

to to learn but in life in business

and startups in any endeavor there's

always strategic byproducts

and of course strategic byproducts are

things like hey let me introduce you to

my literary agent hey you should come

and speak at this event

and both of those were life-changing

moments for me

dan ariely introducing me to my literary

agent which led to my book deals

uh somebody hearing the podcast and

saying you should come and speak on

personal branding leading to me being

represented by

the two largest speaking bureaus in

north america i mean

like life-changing stuff and then me

also being in a place where i show up to

an event and

seth godin is there and it's a hug like

we know each other we're friends






 that that to me are all the amazing

strategic byproducts

of of just showing up and doing great







and again like it's hard in this day and


and to to not be able to stand back and


a lot of it has to do with luck a lot of

it has to do with privilege

i mean you know there's no doubt about

that and and there's a it's a moment now

where we can reflect on all of that and

think about

well how do i want to use luck and

timing and how do i want to use

privilege for sure as well especially

right now

so you have to be you know i hate to use

the word humble about it

but i don't feel like a lot of it had to

do with me other than also

i had like 10 years of interviewing rock

stars before i hit record on my first


so there was also a bit of a pedigree

and a knowledge

and an understanding and a skill set and


we're learning as we go here for a lot

of us but for some of us in this case me

i wasn't really learning as i go i it

was a skill set that i had that was very

transferable to a specific

lucky and privileged moment in time




i love that you ended there because

connecting things that

don't seem very connected but under the


are incredibly connected uh is

sort of the hallmark of you know a true

creative and that's

you know that's how i see you i see you

as a as a true creative and

um you know i'm glad we actually didn't

have a whole lot of time on the show

which is now

just about over uh to talk about all the

Covid 19 stuff we've had those

we've had those those talks um but just


just to you know um

celebrate everything that you've that

you've done is is

is what i wanted to spend this time

doing you know i think you you've uh

you've been

incredibly important to this entire

movement of uh the the power

the the good power i'll just use the

simple word the good power

of connectivity that the digital

landscape affords us and and

how much good we can all do with it if

we just

see it that way and we think about it

that way and we're willing to do the


in that way and i just want to thank you


uh you know the the model that you've

that you set for all of us you know

doing six pixels for

over 700 episodes i mean you know

regardless of who's listening

you know what i mean like that's there's

no better example

than that there's no better example 




appreciate that

look i like to lend a hand and i like

being with people who also like to lend

a hand

and when you lend a hand sometimes you

put your foot in your mouth it happens

you know it really it really does

but i think that in the day and age

we're in if we could all

lend hands to other people especially

now because of how crazy it is on

more than the covid front on race

relations on human relations on work

relations on life

uh none of us are perfect we all have

blind spots we all say stupid stuff

it's it's in our instincts but if we can

figure out

and learn and move on and just keep

lending that hand you build that network

and the conversations don't have to be


they can just be conversations and

that's also an amazing part of

growing your business you will get more

business based on the quality

conversations you have

no doubt about it 



perfect ending note uh


thank you so much everybody out there uh

go follow this this

incredible incredible human being uh

mitch joel everywhere on

on social is the website

uh where you can subscribe to the


check the blog and just be up to date on

everything that this guy's doing he's

always got something cooking so uh do

follow him

he's uh he's just a very very thoughtful

creative uh

and you know quite frankly uh inspiring

person um so thank you mitch for being

on the show

my book creatine orchestrate is in

stores now please go support it and buy

it if you haven't already

the podcast marcus whitney's audio

universe everywhere that you get

podcasts and finally follow me

everywhere online at marcus whitney

that's it i am taking tomorrow off i've

got a speaking

engagement surprise surprise they still

do those virtually uh i can't believe it

so i'll be doing that tomorrow but i'll

be back friday with another episode

uh thanks so much for tuning in to

everybody who enjoyed mitch i know you


and uh until friday let's build a new

normal y'all

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