On #MWL I was joined by Luke Stokes, Managing Director of FIO. We talked about Blockchain, cryptocurrency, the printing of money, and decentralized economies. I recommend this episode for any entrepreneur or business-minded individual who is hungry to learn new skills and gain knowledge in our ever-changing economy.

Where to watch live:
https://youtube.com/marcuswhitneysvideouniverse
https://facebook.com/marcuswhitney
https://linkedin.com/in/marcuswhitney
https://twitter.com/marcuswhitney

Listen to "Marcus Whitney Live Ep. 14 - Luke Stokes" on Spreaker.

Get The Full Episode Transcription

MW
01:03
alright happy Friday
01:06
welcome to another episode of Marcus 20
01:09
live and this is definitely the worst
01:14
internet week I've had in a long time
01:17
but I have a brand new modem coming in
01:18
soon so we're just going to push through
01:21
this final show but I'm excited about
01:24
this show this is one of the first
01:25
people that I wanted to have on the show
01:27
when we when we started this whole
01:30
livestream thing my friend Luke Stokes I
01:34
met Luke here in Nashville Tennessee
01:36
really from the technology community
01:38
Luke is a guy who was entrepreneur
01:41
founder technologist so we had a lot in
01:44
common from that perspective
01:45
he built a company called foxy kart
01:47
which is piece of software that enabled
01:49
anyone to pretty easily make their
01:51
website ecommerce enabled... but then he
01:54
started kind of going off on this weird
01:55
Bitcoin thing you know sort of before
01:58
Bitcoin became Bitcoin, he started like
02:00
talking about it and speaking about it
02:01
at at our local bar camps and stuff and
02:03
then next thing we knew it was like all
02:06
he was doing... he moved on from foxy car
02:08
and he was into this blockchain space,
02:10
and the reason why I have continued to
02:13
follow him is because you know he was a
02:15
guy who had done well and in legitimate
02:17
business so I knew he wasn't like just
02:19
chasing money... for him there was a
02:21
philosophical reason for getting into
02:24
the space there was a technological
02:26
reason a philosophical reason and he's
02:28
been the person that's helped me best
02:30
understand why Bitcoin -and the
02:34
derivative blockchain movement- is is so
02:38
important and I think right now with
02:40
everything going on in the world from a
02:42
financial perspective from a political
02:43
perspective having Luke on to talk about
02:45
that is really really important, so I'm
02:48
excited to have him on the show and Luke
02:50
say hi to the to the folks

LS
thanks so
02:53
much for Marcus really it's an honor to
02:55
be here and to share this time with you
02:57
and talk about this stuff... it's it's
02:58
really a funny situation where you're
03:00
just super passionate about something,
03:01
and you're kind of off in this weird
03:03
realm looking like what is this guy
03:04
talking about? and then here we are you
03:06
know seven and a half years later people
03:07
like oh yeah that's like a thing, and
03:09
maybe that's important you know... I
03:11
remember like he said a BarCamp thing in
03:13
2013 like about bitcoins gonna be more
03:15
than the Internet, and that's a really
03:16
bold claim and now people are starting
03:18
to go away to me yeah this is really
03:20
destructive so glad to be here thank you

MW
03:21
yeah so so one of the things where I
03:24
want to start is some of the terms that
03:27
you that I saw you using that I didn't
03:29
see anyone else who was talking about
03:31
Bitcoin using early on... so most people
03:34
were talking about you know distributed
03:37
ledger, they were talking about the fact
03:40
that it was ungoverned and money you know
03:43
it would enable freedom for people to
03:47
transact privately... you know there were
03:49
sort of all these aspects of Bitcoin
03:51
that most people talked about, and then
03:53
of course there was the trading and
03:55
making a lot of money and the prices
03:56
going up you know I heard you using
03:58
words like voluntary-ism, talking about
04:02
fiat currency talking about the fact
04:04
that the money that we use today is
04:07
largely backed by militaries... and so you
04:11
sort of took that that position
04:14
consistently and even today still talk
04:16
about that… can you just talk a little bit
04:18
about money and what what what Bitcoin
04:23
really solved when when that white paper
04:27
and that initial implementation of
04:29
blockchain came to be?

LS
I love it it's my
04:32
favorite thing to talk about when we
04:33
talk about bitcoin or blockchain or
04:35
anything in this space... it's the idea
04:37
that essentially it taught me something
04:39
about how humans can interact that I
04:41
didn't think previously was possible...
04:42
there are certain things certain
04:44
assumptions that were grow up with you
04:46
know... you need government for this you
04:47
need government for that... and you know
04:49
when I started looking at the technology
04:52
at first it was I don't know 2011 or
04:54
2010 I was like fake internet money
04:55
that's not going to work right make
04:56
money off your computer that's silly... but
04:58
it was towards the end of 2012 when I
05:00
saw actually did the hacker collective
05:02
anonymous tweeting about it and they had
05:04
a Bitcoin address on their Twitter and I
05:06
was like well those guys aren't stupid
05:07
it's actually using to fund... you know I'm
05:10
not saying I agree with you know
05:12
everything they do it represent but it
05:13
was just it got me thinking... so went down
05:15
this deep dive I'm looking at it and I
05:17
started realizing wow I mean if this is
05:20
real money in 2013 I made my first
05:22
purchase I spent 50 bucks and I got two
05:24
and a half Bitcoin was not a not a bad
05:26
investment so that obviously my gosh my
05:27
interest
05:28
you know then you know the crazy run-up
05:31
in 2013 we started a Nashville Bitcoin
05:33
meetup... and I started to realize this is
05:36
actual money without government... and I
05:38
started going bull why have I always
05:40
believed that you need government to do
05:41
money?
05:42
what else do I believe you need
05:44
government to do and that's when I
05:45
started learning about volunteerism...
05:47
really people misuse the word anarchy
05:49
especially today there's a lot of that
05:51
word being thrown around and that word
05:53
actually means without archons without
05:54
rulers, and it's the essentially the idea
05:56
that human beings can rule themselves
05:59
they can self-govern that all human
06:01
interactions should ideally be voluntary...
06:04
now that's very lofty to say but
06:05
building systems that actually are
06:07
equitable and reward people based on
06:10
meritocracy and all these other things
06:11
that can protect the those who can't
06:13
protect themselves, all these things you
06:15
know they become like is that even
06:16
possible
06:17
if you don't have a ruler? right the
06:18
Hogzilla buy it and somebody's gonna
06:19
come in and tell everyone how they're
06:20
supposed to be... but when I started seeing
06:22
money something as important as money
06:24
...we spend you know eight hours a day plus
06:26
away from our kids away from our our
06:28
spouses away from our families to go
06:30
earn this thing and most people don't
06:32
even ask the question what it is... so I
06:35
went down the deep you know deep dive of
06:36
what is money late 1700's learning about
06:39
central banking when that started
06:40
learning about you know 1913 Thoreau
06:43
Reserve Act learning about you know the
06:45
1933 executive orders you couldn't call
06:47
it gold, that'll make o in the United
06:49
States most people don't know that the
06:50
whole period of history learning about...
06:52
Bretton Woods and what that was and how
06:54
that impacted the entire world…

MW
can we
06:57
can we stop there that's a really
06:58
important one so can you talk about
07:00
Bretton Woods like like what happened at
07:03
Bretton Woods what is Bretton Woods?

LS
07:05
that's that's important yeah it's a good...
07:07
one it's essentially imagine the world
07:09
destroyed its World War two into World
07:11
War two everything is destroyed... but you
07:12
had this one country that's quite
07:14
powerful that didn't get destroyed
07:15
that'd be the United States and they
07:16
come in and say okay the world reserve
07:18
currency there were six world reserve
07:20
currencies prior to that and it was the
07:22
Sterling pound in English well they got
07:23
destroyed so the United States comes
07:25
along and says hey we're gonna make a
07:27
bid for becoming the new world reserve
07:28
currency and they pulled it off via
07:30
Bretton Woods, and they essentially said
07:31
okay
07:32
all your currencies are destroyed all
07:33
your economies are destroyed we got an
07:35
idea
07:35
send us all your gold we'll put it in
07:37
Fort Knox we will create a currency
07:39
that's backed by gold this new world
07:42
serve currency... we promise you that we
07:44
will send you physically the exact same
07:46
gold bar that you stamp that you send to
07:48
us if you request the back cost send you
07:50
the exact same one and all you have to
07:52
do is peg your currencies to our
07:53
currency and will solve the world's
07:55
problems... and it was on the surface you
07:58
know the world's in turmoil
07:59
seems like a very you know consistency
08:01
thing it's like yeah okay maybe the
08:03
world needs this right... turned into
08:04
potentially one of the largest global
08:06
heists of financial value the world has
08:08
ever seen...
08:08
when Germany and other countries were
08:10
like okay we kind of like our gold back
08:12
it was like Oh give us a minute and it
08:14
would take like eight years and then
08:15
they'd get back bars that weren't even
08:16
theirs and then people realized wait is
08:18
there any money in Fort Knox at all?
08:20
is this even backed by gold? and then it
08:22
leads into another really significant
08:24
moment which is 1971 Nixon shock where
08:26
Nixon basically said yeah US dollar this
08:29
thing you all trusted in across the
08:31
world...
08:31
um because Viet Nam's really expensive
08:34
and stuff, we're not gonna peg it to the
08:36
gold anymore...
08:37
it's just now fiat and that word fiat if
08:39
you haven't heard it before it means
08:41
money by government decree...
08:42
there's nothing backing it and there's
08:44
been you know hundreds of fiat
08:46
currencies many many hundreds of fiat
08:47
currencies in the average lifespan this
08:49
is back when I did that presentation
08:50
twenty thirteen is 26 years... so
08:52
essentially fiat currencies don't last
08:53
very long and as of 1971 the United
08:56
States has been on a fiat currency they
08:58
broke away from the gold standard in
08:59
they're basically just saying hey it's
09:00
kind of whatever we want … now you get
09:01
modern monetary theory and all these
09:03
other economic ideas that come into
09:04
place and people are like can you really
09:06
just like print money out of nothing? and
09:08
it got me thinking about really the
09:11
nature of financial value itself, and
09:12
these are the type of questions that
09:14
cryptocurrency got me really asked hard
09:16
like what his money? and I started
09:19
realizing it's essentially shared
09:20
storytelling... it's a group of people and
09:22
this goes back to you know as I started
09:24
studying the history of money you know
09:25
tally sticks and shells and rocks with
09:27
holes and I mean all these different
09:28
mechanisms for money and it's really
09:30
just a group of people community saying
09:32
“we actually believe this is valuable and
09:34
if you believe it's valuable to will
09:35
agree to trust each other it's a ledger”
09:37
essentially put entries in this ledger
09:39
you'll get a couple tally sticks I'll
09:41
get a couple shells you'll get a couple
09:42
pieces of paper with dead white people
09:44
out on … whatever it is right and you give
09:46
this a situation where you get a shared
09:47
understanding of value that is really
09:49
just a myth, it's really actually story
09:51
time, but as long as everyone believes
09:53
the story it works and it's the second
09:55
the story breaks down that you start to
09:57
see increasing in violence you start to
09:58
see all these things I mean we've seen
09:59
in Venezuela Argentina and then when you
10:01
dig a little deeper you go
10:02
okay who's funding all this war we see
10:04
in the world... then you start to look into
10:06
like you know all wars or bankers Wars
10:08
you might even get us some Smedley but
10:10
Lee and understand you know war is a
10:11
racket he is one of the most honored
10:13
military generals of all time reading
10:16
his speech is really phenomenal war is a
10:18
racket
10:18
I spent a bother and he start to realize
10:20
he's like what difference between me and
10:22
Capone is that like component you know
10:24
he owned Chicago I own three continents
10:25
this is the sky was just open about his
10:28
role as a military leader in the United
10:30
States and what that meant from a global
10:31
economic perspective and really just a
10:33
bunch of thugs essentially people that
10:36
were using violence and the control of
10:38
value itself to dominate reality and so
10:42
it's that's where I got excited about … if
10:44
we can have a story of value a ledger
10:48
that is completely trusted in an untrust
10:51
like you don't have to trust the actress
10:53
it's basically physics and math... it's
10:55
it's technology that can't be destroyed
10:57
or distorted it's immutable it has all
10:59
these amazing properties to it … that got
11:01
me thinking oh my gosh if this is
11:02
possible what else is possible?

MW
so you
11:05
have been on this journey sort of into
11:11
blockchain as a system that can enable
11:14
these decentralized economies
11:19
communities exchange of value sort of
11:23
the story is the trust in the system...
11:25
ultimately where is that taking you to
11:29
today? like we're where are we I'm
11:32
talking to you where are you right now?

LS
11:33
yeah no it's a thanks for asking that's
11:35
it's fun to think that you know what I
11:38
believe I'm doing with my life is
11:41
actually beneficial to the things I
11:43
believe and it beneficial to my three
11:44
kids my wife... like I'm trying to
11:46
create a world that we all want to live
11:47
in... and I I as you said I sold my
11:50
business back to my business partner in
11:51
in 2018 generate first I started just
11:54
full-time consulting in this face
11:56
because I was very excited about the
11:58
potential... and so part of that was first
12:00
prior to that there was a watching
12:02
called steam and they were doing social
12:04
media in the same way decentralized
12:06
social media in the way you
12:07
couldn't be censored you couldn't be
12:09
stopped everything you post you get to
12:11
control your own content … and they would
12:13
build in an awards mechanism via
12:15
cryptocurrency and so I started earning
12:17
cryptocurrency ended up becoming what's
12:18
called a block producer or a witness on
12:20
that blocks chain and those are just
12:22
basically people who are elected in that
12:25
particular system -there's different what
12:27
they call consensus algorithms for how
12:29
these block chains work, some you might
12:30
have heard proof of work that's what
12:32
bitcoin if you're in some of these
12:33
others do it's also proof of stake
12:35
there's also delegated proof of stake- so
12:37
it's kind of like a almost like a
12:38
democratic republic situation where you
12:41
vote in block producers that you trust
12:42
and they validate the network for you
12:44
so I start getting paid doing this and
12:46
it started really diving into this idea
12:48
of wow you know and that was during back
12:50
in 2014 2015 2016 even the debates in
12:54
the Bitcoin community between Bitcoin
12:56
become cash

MW
so so really quickly I just
12:58
want to I want to clarify something that
13:01
I understand but I know it's likely
13:04
listeners and viewers may not... so steam
13:09
is a blockchain and that blockchain
13:12
enables people to join just like
13:15
Facebook or Twitter and engage in social
13:18
media... it's a social media network
13:20
running on a blockchain... but as you post
13:24
as you post on the blockchain right you
13:30
can be compensated or rewarded and you
13:34
you correct my terms if I get this wrong
13:36
okay because you're the guy who's like
13:38
lived on steve-o…
13:39
but as you post you can be compensated
13:42
in a particular type of cryptocurrency
13:47
that is only coming out of that one
13:51
blockchain right and so what's so
13:53
different about that is on Facebook we
13:57
all post for free
13:59
in fact we pay to get our post
14:02
distributed more broadly … we pay
14:05
Facebook in order to reach more people
14:07
right on Steam you post and you get paid
14:11
in this cryptocurrency called steam

LS
yes
14:18
and and what I want to really highlight
14:19
here which is really important
14:21
that I am not involved in what so ever
14:23
in any way on Steam anymore ... which is interesting and the
14:29
reason I bring this up is it was an
14:30
amazing example of how you can deal with
14:32
governance issues within these
14:34
environments... so in this particular case
14:36
you know we won't get into all the
14:37
details but there was a situation where
14:39
that that community got attacked by a
14:42
very wealthy person who had 20% of the
14:44
tokens and they basically broke the
14:46
governance and started censoring people
14:47
and do things you're not allowed to do
14:48
and the beauty of these voluntary
14:50
systems is which gives me so much hope
14:52
for Humanity... is that it's it's
14:54
completely anyone can show up or not
14:56
depending on where they want to
14:58
contribute... and so that whole community
15:00
essentially took all the code all the
15:02
blockchain and they basically what's
15:04
called a fork they created an entire
15:05
copy of it called hive and you can go to
15:08
PT calm or hive dot IO you can enter a
15:10
blog and you can see it today and they
15:12
just continued and they left the
15:14
attackers in the dust... and essentially
15:16
now this steam blockchain and again I
15:18
call it like steam Tron -it's just it's
15:21
not even watching it's actually a just
15:22
essentially controlled system- so it
15:24
loses that distributed ledger properties
15:28
no longer distributed the governance
15:29
isn't distributed and it's an amazing
15:31
example of where kind of the first layer
15:34
of security on these block chains are
15:35
actually the human beings that again
15:37
believe the story of shared value, so
15:39
they come in and they say we we don't
15:41
believe steam is upholding that value
15:42
anymore, so we're gonna move over to this
15:44
other thing and they really I kind of
15:45
say you know this is just Steam renamed...
15:48
it's really the original you know intent
15:51
still applied... so it's a beautiful
15:53
example and yeah it was just exactly if
15:55
you said it's perfect you you there's
15:57
basically what's called voluntary
15:59
inflation, the economics of the system
16:01
-unlike what we have today and our system
16:03
where you know people talk about audit
16:04
the Fed and look at the Treasury, it's
16:06
like we don't get to have any say and
16:07
how much money is getting printed- and
16:10
that's really theft is you start to
16:11
understand money... inflation that you
16:13
didn't have a say in is stealing from
16:16
your value it's making everything you
16:18
you have less valuable you know and it's
16:21
it's just the ability to control
16:23
inflation and interest rates is another
16:25
very deep topic we could dive into that
16:27
really amounts to a version of powerful
16:31
people controlling those who can't you
16:32
know defend themselves, and it's really
16:34
horrific attacks
16:35
the impacts the poor more than most and
16:37
it's just it's really really frustrating
16:39
and so the idea of a voluntary inflation
16:41
and a mechanism of governments that
16:43
those who have skin and again can
16:44
participate in and say hey we think the
16:46
inflation should be this or that those
16:47
new tokens that you get rewarded when
16:49
you participate in that system are part
16:51
of that inflation... so so I just did not
16:53
just spend too much time just on that
16:54
but I got really excited about that, you
16:56
know any and is from there I started
16:58
thinking beyond just Bitcoin prior to
17:00
that it was just like just Bitcoin
17:01
everything else is not worth your time
17:02
right and there's still many people who
17:04
believe that and I'm not gonna say
17:05
they're wrong, I think there's a wisdom
17:07
in that Bitcoin was the original
17:09
solution that I think is still relevant
17:11
today, and there's I can honestly say
17:14
thousands and that's scary but thousands
17:16
of projects outside of bitcoin that are
17:18
just not worth your time that are in
17:20
some cases straight-up scams so I
17:22
appreciate that respect that but it
17:23
started thinking about we couldn't
17:25
actually build this technology on
17:27
Bitcoin, it's it's you know if you had to
17:29
wait an hour for your post to show up
17:31
with your la bike or your comment you
17:32
know that wouldnt work right this is three
17:34
seconds it's updating and then as I got
17:36
into that I started thinking about these
17:38
ideas of what's called a DAC a
17:40
decentralized autonomous community or a
17:43
Dao is another term that's familiar
17:45
decentralized autonomous organization...
17:48
and I started working with a group
17:49
called the O stack
17:50
I've been work with em for a couple
17:51
years and they're on another blotching
17:53
called EOS and they were even more
17:56
performant more ability to build
17:58
interesting systems for freedom and cell
18:00
sovereignty ,and I got excited about
18:02
saying well what if in the future these
18:04
entrepreneurs to you and I talked to all
18:06
the time... or if they don't go build
18:07
companies but instead they build
18:08
communities and they build them in such
18:10
a way that they don't get to own or
18:11
control them the community is with stake
18:14
in the game we start to add value get to
18:16
participate in

MW
yes so so Luke I want to
18:19
just this point is so important for this
18:22
moment in time right and let me let me
18:24
say why right because we we started with
18:30
an event and it's it feels almost unfair
18:35
to say it wasn't it was a single event
18:37
but I think it's it's in the history
18:40
books it will be undeniable that the the
18:42
murder of George Floyd will be it will
18:45
be the triggering event but we have this
18:48
event
18:49
that has busted because it was so
18:54
empirical, and when you watch it you have
18:59
to admit what is going on you know
19:01
what's going on it's very clear what's
19:03
going on and that busted open a
19:07
narrative it blew a massive hole in a
19:11
narrative around the idea that we have
19:16
equality in this country okay...
19:17
and that then takes a whole the
19:19
narrative back to okay well we got it we
19:22
got a deal with America's sin of slavery
19:24
right so so so that's kind of where the
19:26
conversation is right now we're back
19:28
there now we're like all the way back
19:29
there and one of the things that is so
19:33
difficult about saying we're back there,
19:35
is people are trying to figure out okay
19:39
what do we do what action do we take? and
19:41
I can't wrap my head around how you were
19:45
like honestly can't I cannot wrap my
19:48
head around how you resolve this debt... I
19:51
can't wrap my head around it I just
19:54
can't right

LS
it's I mean it's so
19:56
pervasive it's so involved I mean I've
19:58
been thinking of everyone's been
19:59
thinking about this the last few days...
20:01
it's like how do you how do you it's not
20:04
just a lifetime it's a generation Demick
20:07
it's just it's generations it's yes

MW
it
20:11
is everything that's here everything
20:13
that's here is based on that right and
20:14
so that's what I want to go to like you
20:17
don't live in you don't live stateside
20:19
anymore like you live in a you know a
20:22
controlled territory of the United
20:23
States of America but like talk about
20:25
like where you live and that your your
20:27
you basically operate day to day on
20:30
blockchain... because like to me that as a
20:34
case study you know you're an early
20:36
adopter, you're a technologist,
20:38
you're able to do things and you're
20:39
actually fighting for this to be
20:41
something more usable which we're going
20:42
to get into but but you you are if I
20:45
understand it correctly you're living on
20:47
the blockchain basically... right I mean
20:48
like you don't live in the world the
20:50
rest of us live in where like everything
20:52
we do is in exchange of you know a
20:55
currency system isn't that correct?

LS
20:57
am i yeah no that's that's actually I
21:00
would say 2018 was my favorite year
21:03
because it was completely blockchain it
21:05
was literally like every month I would
21:07
sell cryptocurrency because my wife
21:09
would just tell me what the bills are
21:10
for the month... you know obviously that's
21:12
not sustainable so eventually eventually
21:15
I had to change that up a little bit and
21:17
says he said I my family and I have got
21:19
three kids we moved to Puerto Rico
21:21
because of the tax benefits and a lot of
21:24
people think oh well you just you don't
21:25
want to you don't want to just save some
21:27
money and you know you're greedy or
21:28
selfish and it's like no no I actually
21:29
fundamentally believe that taxation is
21:31
that that service provider should be
21:33
voluntary
21:34
I want roads I want all these things but
21:36
I do not believe they should be backed
21:38
by violence I do not believe they should
21:40
be enforced at the you know but at the
21:42
end of a gun and that's essentially you
21:44
know a friend of mine gave a live talk
21:48
Pedro earlier today and I'm so thankful
21:50
he went into the history of police they
21:52
were birthed out of slave catching... I
21:54
mean this is this is the the foundations
21:57
of these systems that that people are
21:58
just somehow okay with they're okay with
22:00
of monopoly on the initiation of force
22:02
in the geographic region which is what a
22:05
government is and and their own
22:07
enforcers to just basically be above the
22:10
law and we see this again and again and
22:11
and so my perspective is I don't want to
22:14
fund that... I don't want my hard-earned
22:16
dollars via taxation via without my
22:18
consent
22:19
funding war funding really a military
22:22
occupation that is the state enforcer
22:25
system whether that's on a federal level
22:27
or the local level, it's not voluntary...
22:29
and I think it can and should be... you
22:30
know I've looked into other solutions
22:33
you have read a bit about this and I've
22:35
looked at them again trying to build
22:36
these solutions that can be more
22:38
voluntary you know you look at you look
22:39
at the privileged rich people what do
22:41
they do that bodyguards... what do they do
22:43
in the in the jewelry stores they have a
22:44
guy there with a gun they prevent crime
22:47
before it happens and what are the
22:49
people do who can't afford that well
22:51
they left that though you know hey I
22:52
just got destroyed and so they have to
22:54
call someone to come after the fact and
22:56
the person they call puts them at more
22:57
risk than the person that just attacked
22:59
them that's this insane... whereas if we
23:01
have a system and it's used to be called
23:03
the Detroit threat management I forgot
23:05
the exact name today but they do an
23:07
amazing job of policing their local
23:10
neighborhoods providing services in a
23:12
voluntary manner that's decentralized
23:14
it's not a monopoly on the services... and
23:16
they're right
23:16
is impeccable and actually for the for
23:18
the cops who are actually if this could
23:20
be said good people I'm sorry that's
23:23
pretty it's you know thing to say but
23:26
I'm saying if you're willing to take a
23:27
job that is okay with that and turn a
23:29
blind eye when your fellow employees are
23:32
doing these terrific things that I have
23:33
to start questioning at some point your
23:34
character... like if you're okay with
23:36
people not being safe every day of their
23:39
life and okay with the level of
23:40
injustice that's going on and basically
23:42
be like how can you be trusted if you're
23:44
okay with injustice right so there's
23:46
some concerns there but what's beautiful
23:47
is some people have come to get trained
23:49
by these people because they're so good
23:50
at de escalation of violence so good at
23:52
dealing with situations and nonviolent
23:53
ways and so I wanna I want to see
23:55
systems move towards that how I'd love
23:57
to see more local communities create
23:59
their own competing currencies create
24:00
their own defense systems even create
24:02
their own mechanisms where they can have
24:04
control over their own lives sovereignty...
24:07
I mean no one owns your body more than
24:08
you no one owns my body more than me, and
24:10
that's the foundational point from there
24:12
we can get property it's myself in the
24:14
past it's work that I did and from there
24:16
we start building these philosophical
24:18
principles of Liberty, and I think that
24:20
it all hinges on money... I know that's a
24:23
pretty extreme thing to say but this is
24:24
what drives our human motivational
24:26
psychology system is how we get food and
24:28
mate and all these things right it's the
24:30
storytelling of money and if we can't
24:32
take that back and this is central
24:34
bankers do this they have so much power
24:36
because they can make money out of
24:37
nothing... if we could take that back and
24:39
say hey Marcus you and I could create
24:40
money out of nothing
24:41
wouldn't that be powerful? and if we have
24:43
a community that believes us and we
24:44
actually create utility value for the
24:47
tokenization of that value via the money
24:50
we create people would believe the story...
24:51
and then all of a sudden you actually
24:53
have millions of dollars of value that
24:55
is voluntary it's amazing power

MW
yeah so
24:57
so I mean gosh I love talking about this
25:00
and I love the just the statement that
25:06
bitcoin is more disruptive than the the
25:08
Internet and that brings me back to how
25:11
long it took for the internet to mature
25:13
to a place where it could actually have
25:15
real utility so you know my my question
25:21
then leads into what you're doing with
25:24
file right like the thing I
25:26
I feel like once a year I go hey Luke
25:28
okay I'm ready to give this blockchain
25:29
thing a try again and you're like okay
25:31
cool
25:31
here's what you do you do this you do
25:32
that you do this... and I'm a technologist
25:34
like I've built big technology
25:36
businesses like with my own code, okay
25:40
and I go in and I'm like damn it this is
25:43
too hard... like I'm for this why is this
25:46
so hard I got it I got it it's like if
25:48
it's hard for me I'm like I can't bring
25:50
my wife and my kids and my friends into
25:51
it and it's like oh we got to get this
25:54
thing easier to do... it's got to be easier
25:57
to do it easier to understand and so
25:59
you're working on you're working on that
26:01
so talk about Fio like what that is and
26:04
and yeah please

LS
thank you I and I
26:08
completely agree I mean I have a
26:10
computer science degree I Ivy
26:11
league-educated I know this stuff and
26:14
I'm like holy moly this should not be
26:16
this it's so hard difficult... yeah and
26:19
it's there are it's normal we have a
26:22
physical reaction people have and we
26:24
actually surveyed a couple hundred
26:25
people within foundation for
26:27
interoperability we surveyed you know a
26:29
thousand people in another group and
26:30
they all say the same thing is very
26:32
difficult to do,
26:33
it's very stress inducing, people have
26:34
lost money men in the middle attacks
26:36
using the wrong address all these
26:37
different situations... and so one of the
26:39
things that as I was consulting I found
26:42
out about is this project where they're
26:43
saying well let's eliminate all the
26:44
public addresses so there's big long
26:46
crazy hashes you know that that crazy
26:48
thing I saw on that Twitter handle so
26:50
many years ago
26:51
get rid of that and just have for
26:52
example Luke Stokes like an email
26:54
address you know people were really
26:56
simple and it would work for any
26:57
blockchain any cryptocurrency so there
26:59
are thousands and thousands of projects
27:01
thousands of different things out there
27:03
and all I'd have to remember is we've
27:04
got Stokes but it's not just that part
27:06
that's just the naming part the other
27:07
beatin that we call a Pheo address the
27:10
other part would be a feel request
27:11
because in the real world, you don't just
27:14
like have money show up right it's
27:15
always an invoice is always a request
27:17
for funds hey we just bit lunch can you
27:19
know you send me some Bitcoin whatever
27:21
that might be... and facilitating that
27:23
making it as simple as PayPal and venmo
27:25
is really important and then the other
27:27
part is field data so some of these
27:29
change support metadata some of them
27:31
don't,
27:31
so making that homogeneous across all
27:33
those experiences and that way you could
27:35
put like an order in boys so of course
27:37
my background with foxy guard doing
27:39
shopping cart company thinking about you
27:41
know I'd go to a website I say hey I do
27:43
the field request to Lookout Stokes I
27:44
want to pay in Bitcoin and it pops up
27:46
right in my wallet and like oh wow okay
27:47
here's here's all the details this is
27:48
exactly what I want and I know it's
27:50
going to the right person
27:51
boom and I just send it and it's super
27:53
simple and anyone who's been in the
27:55
watching space who gets to experience a
27:57
feel requests in the whole workflow I
27:58
did really thank God awesome

MW
thank God
28:01
you did that little trick where you were
28:02
like I'm gonna give people money to do
28:04
it

LS
I was like okay look he got me I was
28:08
like I'm just giving away a few bucks a
28:09
piece to just have people try right out
28:11
but once they do they're like why hasn't
28:12
it been this way a whole diamond and
28:14
what's important to me what's important
28:17
to me is that it's the technology had to
28:20
get to a point where you could support
28:21
something like this in a decentralized
28:22
way yeah... so Pheo is just that nonprofit
28:25
came in entity but it's the blockchain
28:27
itself is actually run by we now at
28:30
thirty-one independent block producers
28:31
it is fully decentralized I'm the
28:33
managing director for this entity, but I
28:35
can't control anything the block
28:36
producers will run whatever code they
28:38
want they will make whatever changes
28:39
they want , but we just standardized the
28:41
process we have this fit you know the
28:43
feel improvement proposal process and we
28:45
have all these different governing that
28:46
agree call earlier today with some
28:48
experts and governance and we're doing
28:49
so many cool things to make sure this
28:51
doesn't become another Google another
28:54
Amazon another Facebook a totalitarian
28:57
top-down technocratic you know
29:00
government basically right we have to
29:02
keep it decentralized in a way that
29:03
everyone who participates and has skin
29:05
in the game has a clear mechanism and
29:08
path for being part of the evolution of
29:11
the protocol... where I get to participate
29:12
in governance and so so I it took a
29:15
while for the technology to get there
29:16
and the team epochs the main service
29:18
provider for the Foundation's from
29:20
working on this, they've done an amazing
29:21
job the block research should have us
29:23
incredible and my hope is basically kind
29:25
of like you see in Africa and other
29:27
places where they just leapfrog the hard
29:29
lines they go right to cell phones yeah
29:31
I'm hoping that's what's gonna happen
29:32
people will just
29:33
leapfrog the traditional public address
29:35
system and they'll take their business
29:37
and say I can go right into
29:38
cryptocurrency if I can just give every
29:39
one of my customers a feel address and
29:42
we reserved a bunch of domain names for
29:43
these large businesses when they're
29:44
ready we're waitin for them we have a
29:47
125 million tokens designated just for
29:50
free address cable
29:51
so we're gonna be givin away these
29:52
addresses to people so they can
29:53
experience this... and and also it's like
29:55
you mentioned earlier you're kind of
29:56
alluded to you know the internet was
29:58
around for ten years prior to the HTTP
30:00
protocol coming out you know and there
30:02
was like no usability layer you did have
30:04
the world wide web or web browsers and
30:06
once that happen if you look at the
30:08
adoption herbicide just right through
30:09
the roof right and I think here we are
30:11
ten years later and we're starting to
30:13
have that experience with watching with
30:14
Pheo protocol
MW
man that was the fastest
30:17
half hour I think I've ever done on the
30:18
show dude so listen we're gonna have to
30:20
do a part two and maybe a part three I'm
30:22
like honestly I think this could
30:23
actually be a series because and and
30:26
it's it's just why I love staying in
30:28
touch with Steve thank you for
30:29
maintaining this friendship man because
30:31
you I've just lucky that you were here
30:35
in Nashville and now like you're the
30:36
managing director of potentially the way
30:40
that this thing is gonna become usable
30:41
finally you know and and I I just I have
30:45
this strong gut feeling that if we can
30:48
find a way to make this whole thing
30:50
accessible to people you know I mean I
30:52
understand it all I'd you know I did the
30:55
I did all the altcoin stuff I'm what
30:58
made some money I lost some money I had
30:59
the ledger wallet I mean you know I did
31:01
enough to be able to keep up with you in
31:03
these conversations and I also did
31:05
enough to know how far away that is from
31:07
the everyday person right so I have a
31:09
real interest especially right now
31:12
especially right now when it is clear
31:16
that some of the issues we have in
31:19
society are going to require entirely
31:21
new ways of thinking about them like we
31:24
cannot continue to expect the exact same
31:28
systems to give us the the justice quite
31:33
frankly the reset button in some ways we
31:35
kind of need a reset button where we can
31:38
I mean I I just I just before this I
31:40
watched this YouTube video of this woman
31:43
I think her name was Kimberly Jones and
31:44
she made the analogy of what we've
31:46
experienced lost 450 years in this
31:47
country to monopoly where for 400 years
31:51
if every year was a round of Monopoly
31:53
right one person made the other person
31:57
wear them and give them all the all the
31:59
money right and so they had a 400 round
32:02
lead and then for the fifty and then
32:04
they said
32:04
okay now you can play and you can work
32:06
and you can have it but if they didn't
32:07
like the way they did anything they just
32:10
sent them to jail and took everything
32:11
that they had
32:12
right which is black Wall Street which
32:14
is which is rosewood right and so she's
32:17
like like it's like the Monopoly game
32:19
sucks the game sucks right and and I you
32:24
have to have some kind of radical change
32:27
to the game it cannot be you know
32:30
incremental small change like you got to
32:33
rethink the game the game has some
32:37
fundamental issues with it right and we
32:40
got to be able to finally say that so
32:41
for me you're a person I want to bring
32:45
on this show again and again and again
32:47
and I want to keep digging into this and
32:49
I want to track your progress with with
32:51
is a fee or file fee

LS
fi oh I I say I say
32:54
fee Oh some people say file - both but
32:56
but I absolutely would be honored Marcus
32:59
to be on your show again I so appreciate
33:01
what you do for your community what you
33:02
do for the technology industry and your
33:04
passion to kind of get these
33:06
conversations going... you know because it
33:08
really is you're exactly right my
33:09
favorite you know mr. fuller quote
33:11
you know invite the existing system you
33:12
out innovated by creating a new one you
33:14
make the old system irrelevant and
33:15
that's exactly what we're tennard you
33:16
create new systems with cryptocurrency
33:18
blockchain these distributed Ledger's
33:19
technologies that are enabling a
33:22
voluntary society in a way that these in
33:24
Justices that we see all around us and
33:26
are becoming plain as the nose on our
33:28
faces we can build a system that makes
33:30
that system irrelevant... and that's
33:31
realigning motivational incentives it's
33:34
a new game just like you said and it's a
33:36
game that's more equitable more
33:37
meritocratic and and also I'm hoping
33:40
just more efficiently using this
33:43
technology that we have to create better
33:45
systems better worlds so we can actually
33:46
do really really cool things so
33:48
definitely looking forward to continuing
33:49
the conversation

MW
awesome we're gonna do
33:51
it so thank you Luke everyone out there
33:53
I know this fascinating person you want
33:55
to learn more about him he's very very
33:57
active on Twitter that is a great place
33:59
to follow him at Luke's stoked
34:00
Luke Stokes and I've got all of his
34:03
other information up there his website
34:04
all that good stuff please do follow him
34:06
check him out ask him questions he's
34:08
he's great at engaging with people
34:10
online so you know go check him out
34:12
people my book is coming out June 30th
34:15
create nor destroyed it doesn't get into
34:17
the currency
34:18
but it does get into entrepreneurship it
34:20
does get into thinking about how to
34:21
create new systems about how to not play
34:23
within the existing rule set about
34:25
writing your own rules about figuring
34:26
out what your own path is gonna be so
34:28
I'm could not be more excited about this
34:30
finally coming out into the world I feel
34:32
like the timing is almost divine this
34:34
show and many others can be found on my
34:36
podcast Marcus Whitney's audio universe
34:38
that's on Apple Spotify Google I Heart
34:41
Radio SoundCloud etc etc and please
34:43
follow me everywhere on social to keep
34:46
up with this and every other thing that
34:48
I'm working on and that is all the time
34:51
we have for today everyone it's the
34:52
weekend continue to lean into this
34:56
moment to lean into this situation I
34:58
think you know in the beginning of this
35:00
year we were well not the beginning of
35:01
this year but the beginning of the
35:03
pandemic everyone was feeling like holy
35:05
crap in this year you know it just sucks
35:07
it's cancelled and now we're realizing
35:08
it is it is bringing a clarity to two
35:12
things and making us appreciate what
35:15
really matters and and and fight for
35:17
what really matters and so you know take
35:20
care of yourself this is a marathon not
35:21
a sprint
35:22
but don't give up too soon we we have a
35:24
long road ahead so until next time I'm
35:29
taking the weekend off and so excited
35:30
about that I will see you next Monday
35:32
with another show here on Marcus when
35:34
you live

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